Money Mastery Coaching

Episode 18: What’s the Deal with Debt?

Wealth Acceleration Podcast | Debt

 

The multifaceted topic of debt—why does it stir such powerful emotions, and can it be more than a burden? Wade Reed delves into this complex subject on the Wealth Acceleration Podcast, exploring debt’s emotional weight, practical strategies for managing it, and why it’s essential to find purpose beyond simply repaying loans. Wade sheds light on the historical context of borrowing, the societal pressures that fuel debt, and offers insights on navigating financial obligations with integrity and purpose.

Watch the episode here

 

Listen to the podcast here

 

What’s The Deal With Debt?

Understanding Debt: A Complex Relationship

In this episode, we’re dealing with the topic of debt. Yes, the age-old debt that everyone seems to hate, is so upset about, and freaks out about how much debt they have, trying to get out of debt, and wanting to live debt-free. It’s an interesting topic for me. It’s something I have given serious thought to. I’ve contemplated and pondered what the deal with debt is. Why is it so emotionally charged? Of all the money topics aside from taxes, debt seems to be the biggest topic that comes up for everyone that I talk to. I wonder where that comes from.

This episode is going to be another of Wade’s musings, sharing some observations and thoughts, pondering with you on what’s going on with debt. What debt is, how it works. Is there good debt and bad debt? Is it okay from a Christian point of view to have debt or not? Is there any morality around that? How about things like, “If I get out of debt, what’s next?” coming up with something else to give us focus and purpose? These are all things that are on my mind, and I want to chat with you as we do this episode.

Let’s talk about what debt is. Debt is, from a financial perspective, an instrument of personal finance and business finance. In other words, it’s a tool that people use to get more of something that they’re looking for. Let’s look back. I’m a fan of history and looking back at how things used to be. There was a time when personal goods were not as easy to obtain. Let’s say that you’re a farmer and you need access to some form of equipment you don’t currently have.

You might go to the general store and say, “Do you have access to any of these products in your stock?” They might say, “No, we don’t but we could order it for you. It’s going to take us weeks from our supplier across the country.” If you are in need of that particular product, what do you do? Hopefully, you’re in a good relationship with your neighbors who might be miles away but still your neighbors. You might come into town and have some sociality at an event. You’re like, “Neighbors, I’m looking for this piece of equipment. Does anyone have it available that I might borrow?”

You come up with some agreement. If you’re in a good relationship with these people, maybe they simply, on a handshake, say, “For sure, come by and bring your wagon over. We’ll hitch it up and get that equipment over to your place. Use it for whatever you need it for and make sure you bring it back in good repair.” Generally, that was it. Somebody had something to lend and somebody had a need so they borrowed it and returned it in good faith.

Is there anything wrong with that? Are you in debt to your neighbor if you borrow something from them? If you’ve made an agreement to get something back to somebody else that you’ve borrowed, it’s not given to you and not yours to keep, then technically you’re in debt. Does anyone feel bad when they borrow something like that?

My son ran to the neighbor to borrow some eggs. Did that put us into an adverse situation with our neighbor? If the neighbor needed those eggs back and we were not able to provide them back to them and it created hardship, perhaps that could create a negative situation but in most cases, it seems to me that when we borrow something from somebody, we’re in a healthy relationship with them. They have something we need. We need that thing. We make a promise to return it whatever the circumstances are, “Get it back to me this week or the next day.”

I do that with neighbors all the time and it’s a nonissue. Why is it though that money becomes such a hot topic? What is it about borrowing money that seems to create discord or emotional stress? To me, it comes back to things like being in true hardship. Somebody is in need of meeting their basic necessities. The human condition is built upon basic functions like food, shelter, clothing, and the basic necessities of life.

When we’re borrowing things, it may be that we’re emotionally distraught and feel like we’re failing at providing for our family. Usually, it’s men who that falls upon. Not that women don’t but generally in the population, it’s men who are out providing and protecting their families. It’s been a common role for many years. Men go out there and are doing their best to provide. Maybe they get injured. Maybe there’s a sickness or the Great Depression from the late 1920s when people didn’t have work to do. We’ve seen some of that with COVID.

The Emotional Burden of Debt

I got done by reading an article on a Christian network that’s talking about debt and the comments associated with that article. There are people who have had severe hardship due to unforeseen circumstances, which seem out of their control. They’ve been forced to borrow to pay rent, try to keep their business going, and meet the basic necessities of life. They’re in deep prayer and trying to find guidance as to what they can do. Do they shirk their responsibility and say, “I can’t pay this debt anymore?” What happens if they do that?

There’s a lot of personal emotional stress. We have certain preferences and moral obligations to keep our word. One of our emotional issues with debt is that. We want to keep our word but it feels burdensome. Maybe we might be questioning our integrity if we’re not able to make our payments. Perhaps we got sucked into some scheme. We believed that this investment scheme was going to be successful in trying to increase our wealth so we borrowed to do that and it turned out badly.

I have one client who came to mind who came into an opportunity to get some cryptocurrency and was taught that it was supposed to be a no-brainer. He ended up borrowing $80,000 against the value of their house using a home equity line of credit. He came to me somewhat embarrassed and said, “I have to confess. I did this thing. It’s created some harm to us financially. I’m not sure how we’re going to repay this.”

We make mistakes sometimes and borrow for things that don’t work out. That puts us in a position where we struggle to know what to do. That’s part of it. We do have this obligation to somebody we might not be able to pay so we have to go maybe even emotionally on our knees, not necessarily physically but emotionally, we have to work through that decision of, “I need to go confess to the person I borrowed the money from that I’m not able to repay.”

Maybe it’s humbling but it could be humiliating. Those are closely tied together. I feel like humiliating is the idea that it’s a public confession and others are going to ridicule us versus the humility of going, “I made a mistake. I need to own up to that and find a new agreement with the person I borrowed money from.” This is much more easily done with one-to-one human relationships but it can also be done with large lending organizations like banks and other credit offering companies where you can renegotiate the terms of a deal.

I worked in banking for four years. A bank’s main function is to gather deposits and then turn those deposits into loans to create a movement of money in society. While I was going through that time, I was studying under Dave Ramsey. Dave Ramsey is very biblically focused in his approach to money. I can’t remember what the actual reference is but there’s a verse that says that the borrower is a slave to the lender. They almost use that as a weapon or stick to say, “Never borrow money because you become a slave.”

That only occurs if we are not able to meet our obligations and we’ve been unwise about the choice of using borrowed money. If you have a need to acquire skills, then you may need to borrow to go get the education that then allows you to have the skills to get the job that is in need of people to do that job. If the pay for that job is sufficient to repay over a reasonable period the money you borrowed, that’s probably a wise use of funds so you can be a better provider for your family and yourself. Let’s say it happens that you’ve made a bad choice and maybe that opportunity doesn’t work out and you have this obligation.

I was in a situation where one of our borrowers was a business owner who had a men’s clothing store in a strip mall next to the bank that I worked for. Our branch manager was generous with this guy. He let him pay late and worked out terms that would allow for the ongoing operations of the business. He worked things out with his higher-ups to allow for this loan. Instead of going into full default, he continued to be paid even though the terms were not quite being met and was quite generous with how he was willing to work with this business. He allowed them to find a way to continue to operate and pay their obligations as best they could.

In worst-case scenarios, if you have a lending situation where somebody or an organization is not willing or maybe you’ve wrapped up a lot of credit card debt because of life circumstances or bad choices, there are bankruptcy laws. There are laws in the United States that allow us to seek bankruptcy protection. In other words, it’s protection against interest that would continue to be accrued and completely decimating somebody. If you’re in a tough place and not in a position to be able to repay, you can file for bankruptcy protection.

There are a couple of different chapters like Chapter 7, Chapter 11, and a couple of others. Those are the most common. You can seek protections that allow for debts to be eliminated. A repayment plan that’s reasonable even though less than what would normally be obligated could come about where it’s pro rata. Everyone gets their fair share.

The Cycle of Debt: Causes and Consequences

That allows you to meet what you might have as a personal moral obligation keeping up with your level of integrity that you promised to repay so you do so at least at the level you’re able to. There are laws that allow for that although they can be still burdensome. Your credit score goes way down. You have trouble getting new credit in the future if you’re trying to get into a home or something. It’s quite difficult to get your personal credit back in a good place but there are ways you can overcome that.

Why do we get into bankruptcy? Why do we get into those positions? Oftentimes, it’s personal hardships and usually, it’s medical debts of some kind or things that are out of your control. Maybe your insurance is inadequate. Circumstances are difficult. I talked about this in my prior episode on lifestyle creep. Henry Ford, back in the early 1900s when the manufacturing facilities came online, paid $5 a day compared to the typical $2 to $3 a day. People had a surplus for the first time and then they started to shift their thinking from being producers of goods and services to consumers of what might be unnecessary things.

Wants started to come about. They’re seeking personal leisure, satisfaction, and gratification. Also, trips. None of which is inherently bad but the behavior change started to occur. We live in a very consumeristic country. We’re sold things that don’t necessarily need to be purchased. If we have a surplus, they’re surplus. Sure, we can go ahead and do those things but oftentimes, we get sucked into these buying decisions based on impulses and this desire for our brains to seek a dopamine high. There’s a chemical in the brain that we get instant gratification from our YouTube scrolls and purchase decisions.

If we do that too often and we’re trying to keep up with our peers and everything, I see a lot of people get into credit card debt. That credit card debt piles up and you think, “I can get out of this one day and meet this payment. No big deal.” For long, you’ve got thousands and tens of thousands of dollars built up. Yes, you might be able to meet your minimum payment but your ability to make anything extra toward that becomes nearly impossible.

You become emotionally distraught. Depressive behavior comes in and then you might be less productive at work and less willing to step up and meet your obligations. That’s where the mental burden comes in again dealing with that. What’s fascinating to me is I’ve observed this behavior and thought about what’s causing people to get back in debt when they get out of debt. There’s a cycle that occurs here.

Back to Dave Ramsey for a minute here. When I was working in banking, I was training in his classes. I would hear people on his radio show every Friday. He did this debt-free scream where people would call in and say “I followed your baby steps and did the debt snowball. I’ve got all my consumer debt taken care of. I’ve got my house left.” He would allow them to tell their story and then they would say, “We’re debt-free,” but I knew people personally who had done that. Almost immediately, they got back into debt. Something still didn’t click.

I’m a big fan of being mindful of your spending behavior. I’ve even got a tool I call the Spending Tracker and Planner that’s available for free on my website. It’s a Google sheet that allows you to do some planning and keep track of what your spending plan is. Often, people refer to that as a budget. I hate that word because it’s got this negative connotation.

What we’re trying to do is be responsible. You can have anything in life that you want. You just can’t have everything. That requires that we become mindful of our true values and priorities in life, and determine with the limited resources we currently have of money which in the long-term may be unlimited of what you can acquire based on the value you provide to the world but in the short-term, it is limited. You have a limited quantity of dollars coming in from the value you’re creating for your employer or customers. You’ve got to be wise with that stuff.

Wealth Acceleration Podcast | Debt

The purpose of our lives is often built around the spending behavior that we have. We’re crazily motivated to pay things off for a period of time but then we don’t have enough purpose for the next thing. There is a life after debt and oftentimes, it’s debt. I don’t want that for you. If you’re in a position where you’re working on getting out of debt, I want you to have a life purpose beyond debt. I want for you to determine what is next. What investment skills do you want to learn? What new personal skills do you want to learn so that you can earn more money? What giving do you want to be able to do?

Take those dollars that are being freed up as you pay off loans like those minimum payments that you are making and perhaps you’re making extra payments. It’s all that cashflow, the hundreds to perhaps thousands of dollars a month that’s going toward that debt snowball or avalanche, whatever you call it. In that acceleration process of paying back debt, there will be cash flow freed up. If you don’t have a clear purpose for what those dollars are going to do], you will very quickly end up back in the same situation.

We’ve got to have a higher purpose. That’s why I go back to episode one of my show where I talk about having a financial vision for your future. You’ve got to have that clear. When you go back to my Lifestyle Creep episode, you recognize there needs to be a system in place. How have I identified the four-step process of my awesome methodology, organize, systemize, optimize, and maximize? It’s from thousands of conversations, seeing people’s behavior, and going, “Here are the proper steps. You have to get yourself financially organized.”

Practical Steps for Debt Management

I got to know what my debts are. I’ve got to delineate every single one of them, not in a lump sum, “Here’s my total credit card debt,” but each credit card. If you have student loans, it’s not just the aggregate total balance of $40,000 to $250,000 or whatever it is but every single line item. That’s why in my total wealth organizer, you’ll see on the student loan section that there are fifteen different line items. A lot of the clients I’ve worked with have had lots of different loans on their credit cards. There are six different credit cards. In the business, there are four different credit cards.

If you don’t yet have this, you can go get my personal finance essentials course. It includes some basics of personal finance. You can use the episodes here to give you the right framework but then there’s some practical stuff in that, including my total wealth organizer or perhaps you can pick it up as a standalone item if you prefer. It’s an organization tool that will help you know where you’re at so then you can make a plan.

I even have my balance sheet tab. After you’ve plugged in all your debts, there’s another tab that says, “Loan Details.” It has a way to organize your debts in what I call the cashflow index. I’m not the only one to use this term. It’s come from many different people. It’s a measure of your minimum payment and how many payments you have left to pay off the balance. It’s a simple metric but useful. You’ll find that the lower the number on that cashflow index, if it’s below 75, then it’s something that should be accelerated. If it’s 75 to 125, then it’s something that can make minimum payments. If it’s above 126, it’s efficient. We don’t need to focus on that one.

These payments are usually credit cards and car loans, which are the ones that need to be focused on first, or maybe a personal loan at the bank. Maybe you’ve got a loan from your 401(k) that you need to repay. All these will automate which ones fall into that category. You’ll see what the total balance is, what the minimum payments are, and what the actual payments are. I’ve got a system already in there for debt repayment but there has to be life after death. You need to have a higher purpose beyond that.

I want to make one other comment on this. It’s not only debt but also other obligations we take on like subscriptions. I once had a subscription for clothing to come to my house because I wanted to test out myself not having to go shopping but having somebody be a personal shopper. I temporarily had a subscription to get some clothing. We have entertainment subscriptions like Hulu, Disney, Amazon Prime, Netflix, and all that stuff. You might have a membership to a gym or agreed to some other ongoing monthly commitment.

Why do we do that stuff? We like to enjoy our life. Lifestyle. We want to live wealthy. I’m all about that but also within a measure of wisdom. These payments that we take on also tend to give us purpose for our money. Usually, it’s out of an absence of having a higher purpose or a bigger life vision that we succumb to the day-to-day spending of all of our money as opposed to having a brighter future and setting money aside for the opportunity to change jobs, give generously, and retire so you don’t have to work your entire life.

I talked about that in a prior episode, having a purpose in retirement. It’s retiring to something rather than from it. Likewise in our earlier years, I’ve got a purpose to continue raising my family and being able to help them get into college and also downpayment for houses. I have to have money set aside for those things. They’re going on missions for the church we belong to. There are some costs associated with that out of our pocket. There are vehicle repairs and all kinds of things that are current but also future.

We need to have a higher purpose and set money aside for various reasons, short-term, mid-term, and long-term things. The system that I’ve come to appreciate is this. Ten percent is always set aside for giving, like a tithe. Twenty percent is for current and future savings needs. Seventy percent is what we have available for lifestyle. I would prefer that to be 30% going to savings but if you can get toward 20% on savings and you’re in debt and need to repay debt, most of that 20% is debt repayment money. That’s specifically allocated for that because once it gets done paying off debt, then it can be used to save and invest.

There’s a particular account that I like to have, an intermediary account. Get back to my lifestyle creep conversation on the systemization of money. You need to have an account. Everything goes through that automatically captures it. Instead of getting sucked into lifestyle, it gets made available for decisions. It’s temporarily held in a position where it’s not to be spent.

It’s to be waited upon until the right opportunity comes along where we can think about making evaluations of different opportunities and choosing the right things. We’ve talked about some of the emotional side of debt, the practical side of debt, and the purpose side that debt gives us and why people go back into debt because they didn’t have a higher purpose beyond that and maybe hadn’t planned sufficiently to stay out of debt. Let me give you one more example.

Rebuilding Wealth: The Role of Savings

Cars. Working with the Dave Ramsey model, he teaches people but often it’s misunderstood. That is when you pay for a car with cash. It says, “Cash is king. Debt is dumb.” For the most part, that’s true. Cash is king. When you go buy a car in cash, and let’s say you have $20,000 to pay for a car, what happens to the payment you would have made to a bank? If you had instead borrowed $20,000, would you have made your payments on a regular basis?

I would venture to say it’s on a very high 90% likelihood of yes. Let’s assume you had $20,000 in the bank and it was earning 3%. Your loan is for say five years. I haven’t done the math on this but you can estimate. It’s going to be bigger. If you have $20,000 in the bank and you’re earning 3% a year which is meager but is still something, you’re going to have more than $20,000 in 5 years.

What about the car loan? Will it be paid off in five years? Let’s assume it’s a $ 500-a-month payment. The car loan will be paid off in five years and you’ll have cash in the bank but what if you pay cash for the car? You’ve traded the cash for the car. What about the payment you were making to a bank? What’s often missed is the calculation of time and interest on the money that you borrow. We always have to add that in. What would you have been willing to pay a bank?

In this market, it’s around 6% to 8% for a car loan. Calculate that out. Run online an amortization calculator. Over 5 years for $20,000, what would the payment have been? You need to make sure within your spending plan you have that same payment you would have been willing to make to a bank in the past that you pay to yourself. That is the missing link right there. When it comes to staying out of debt, you have to rebuild the money that you used to pay for the car so that in the future, you can do it again. You have to back up the money and pretend that you are a bank.

If I’m taking $20,000, I’m not just spending it. I’m lending it to myself for the purpose of buying the car. I got to take that same principal and interest payment. I would have made the bank and paid it back to myself. This is a very important principle. If we are in the past willing to borrow from banks and repay, we need to act as ourselves and have the same level of integrity. This will get you out of that debt cycle.

Have a spending plan that’s consistent and an account intermediary to your earnings before you spend that captures everything. I call it the wealth capture/clearing account. You have a repayment plan for yourself if you ever pay cash for large purchases so that you recapture those dollars that would have gone to a bank but instead, you get to keep them in your system for long-term savings.

To seed something, in the work I do as a life insurance agent, we use whole life insurance as one of those tools. If you have sufficient cash to meet your basic emergency fund, start to shift money over to this surplus that’s building up. Whole life insurance consistently does 4% to 5% tax-free, which is equivalent to 6.5% to 9%, depending on your tax bracket. You get this guarantee of death benefit that comes along with it that protects your family. It’s liquid like a bank savings account.

I have clients who still want that forced savings plan. Adding a whole life insurance that’s designed properly for high early cash value that has very minimal obligation but a high potential for accumulating cash may make sense. That’s something that’s worth looking into and understanding more. There are other things aside from a bank savings account that can still have the safety of a savings account but higher earning potential with tax advantages. That’s where I have fallen in love over the years with life insurance as an asset.

It’s the only insurance product that is an asset as a matter of fact. Everything else is a protection vehicle but this is both a wealth building and a protection vehicle. There’s some food for thought for future planning. The last thing I want to do is wrap up. One of my mentors, Garrett Gunderson, in an event I was at with him, used an exercise he called The Wealth Exercise. I’m sure he didn’t get this from himself. He probably borrowed it from somebody else. I don’t know the source of this. It might be a Tony Robbins thing. It might be even further back to Zig Ziglar, Napoleon Hill, or something like that.

I want you to think about this to help you move forward and be prepared for a future purpose beyond just yourself getting out of debt and dealing with that. Imagine with me for a minute here. Imagine that I have an extra $100 a month for you. Imagine if it was no obligation, it was an extra $100 a month that was coming into your life. What kind of a change would that make? You knew you had $100 a month and $1,200 a year coming into your spending plan that you could do with whatever you desired. What would you do with that $100 a month?

Let’s increase that number and add a zero. What if that number was $1,000 a month? What kind of a difference would that make for you? No obligations to repay. It’s an extra $1,000 a month coming into your life. What would you do with that? How would that make a difference? Would you save it, use it to pay off debt, or invest it? What would you do?

Let’s add another zero. What if you had $10,000 a month coming in? It’s extra on top of everything else that you’re earning from your business, W-2 wage, or whatever it is that’s earning income for you. It’s an extra $10,000 a month. What can you do with that? How is your life different? How are other people’s lives different? What if it’s $100,000 a month coming in?

Conclusion:  Embracing a Positive View on Debt

For many of you, it’s unfathomable to have $100,000 a month. A lot of people are barely getting $100,000 a year, let alone $100,000 a month. That might be beyond many of your thinking to have ever gone that far but just imagine. For those of you who are at that level, you have millions of dollars in your businesses coming in so you’re used to large numbers. What would an extra $100,000 a month can you do in your personal life?

We’ll take it one step further. $1 million a month. How is your life’s purpose different? How is what you do with your time different? At some point along that continuum of increasing the monthly number, your brain went, “If I paid off all my debt, my house is paid, I’ve got money in the bank, I can meet all my daily obligations, and my monthly nut is cracked by having that guaranteed income, what would I do next?” That’s the moment that I wanted for you in that exercise.

What was the number? Was it $1,000 a month, $10,000 a month, or $100,000 a month? Which number caused your brain to go, “There’s more than just my life. I can do other things.” That’s what we’re built for and why we’re here. It’s not only to survive but to thrive. Look at our fellow brothers and sisters in this world and go, “How can I add value to their lives?”

I’ll wrap up with this little story. It’s early November 2024 at the time of this episode. We have Thanksgiving coming up. At church on Sunday, in our men’s meeting, I had a flyer that came to my attention about a food drive for those who are in need. There’s a city near Salt Lake City called Bountiful. What a great name. Bountiful, having a bounty of things. It has a food pantry and they’re doing a food drive for turkeys and turkey dinners for Thanksgiving. The opportunity came up to go buy a frozen turkey and some other accessories to provide a meal to 1 family or 2.

I brought this to my wife’s attention. She’s on her way to take our kids to school. I said, “You said you have to stop at the store to pick up something. Would you mind while you’re at it to allow us the opportunity to help this food pantry out?” She picked up a frozen turkey and some of the extras that were asked for so that we could offer a little extra.

It’s such a joyful thing. My favorite thing in life is to use the financial resources that come into my life to bless the lives of others. I want you to experience that firsthand if you haven’t yet. Find some portion of your money that you can give. I promise you this, you can never outgive God. A spiritual leader in my life once said, “You can give a crust of bread to the Lord but you’ll always get a loaf of bread in return.”

Dallas Jenkins, the Founder of the series The Chosen, in a talk he did at Brigham Young University talked about loaves and fishes. It’s the miracle of the 5,000 for those of you who are familiar with that. When Jesus was teaching for several days, the people had become physically hungry. They were in a time when they were in need. They couldn’t go get food from the market. It was too far away and far into the end of the day.

He said, “Who among you has something to offer?” There were 2 loaves and 5 fishes from this young boy. Jesus thanked God and then multiplied that to feed not only the 5,000 but the scripture also says 5,000 men plus women and children so it was probably 10,000 or more people. Yet the disciples brought back the baskets full and overflowing.

You cannot outgive God. I invite you to test that. Whether you’re a true believer or not, test the principle of giving and allow the law of reciprocity to kick in. At some point, you will always get more back. It may not be physical material things or actual dollars but it will return itself. Maybe it’s improved health or relationships that you’re in need of, not money. Give generously.

Those are my musings on debt. I appreciate you for reading. It’s a longer episode with a little bit of rambling in terms of getting my thoughts together. This is a big deal. Debt is such a heavy topic. I want you to have a positive viewpoint on it. I want you to think, “What good has taking on this debt done for me? I’ve been able to buy a house, start a business, and get an education.” On the flip side, “What have I done poorly about debt? How could I avoid that in the future?” Make sure you’re mindful of that stuff.

If you like this content, please make sure you hit that like button on the YouTube page if you’re there. Leave a review on Apple. Share some comments about why this is valuable. Pass this on to other people that you think could benefit from it. It means the world to me that you’re sharing this content. The life’s mission that I’m on to enhance people’s financial education and literacy is fulfilled.

I want to touch thousands of lives and to my understanding, this is only reaching hundreds. Please help me reach thousands of people by enhancing their financial lives and their confidence in life. Also, letting money be a tool for good in their lives and not something that feels oppressive, harsh, and worrisome. I want you to be in an abundant mindset full of joy and happiness as you work with the financial resources you have. Take care. We’ll see you in the next one.

 

Episode Resources

Key Topics:

00:00 Understanding Debt: A Complex Relationship

05:50 The Emotional Burden of Debt

11:34 The Cycle of Debt: Causes and Consequences

17:40 Practical Steps for Debt Management

23:21 Rebuilding Wealth: The Role of Savings

29:16 Conclusion:  Embracing a Positive View on Debt

Scroll to Top
Skip to content